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lingo 4 and LP accuracy
2018-03-13, 17:54
Post: #1
lingo 4 and LP accuracy
I was telling a friend yesterday about my Lingo 4 on order, and what it does. She is not at all into audio, but is pretty smart (PhD, physics), and after only a small number of seconds, asked how accurately the speed is maintained on a typical cutting lathe.

I had to say I had no idea.

So does anyone here know any of:
1. how accurate (and stable) is the speed of a typical cutting lathe
2. is this orders of magnitude better that the replay speed accuracy of an LP12/Lingo 4 (and how do they do that?)
3. do lathes vary (wildely? or just a bit?) in their accuracy?
4. does this mean that LPs cut more accurately sound better with the L4,
5. and will different LPs show different levels of improvement going from (my) Lingo 1 to Lingo 4, depending on what they were cut on?
6..At the L4 demo, all the LPs we heard were better with L4 (cf L3) - were we just lucky? or might it be that LPs we like a lot happen , amongst other things, to be cut with very accurate lathes (and we (I at least) did not hitherto recognise this as a factor)?

Asking just for interest. I KNOW (because I heard it) that the Lingo 4 is a worthwhile upgrade - I just like to understand these things....
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2018-03-13, 18:23
Post: #2
RE: lingo 4 and LP accuracy
(2018-03-13 17:54)paul_g_barnett Wrote:  I was telling a friend yesterday about my Lingo 4 on order, and what it does. She is not at all into audio, but is pretty smart (PhD, physics), and after only a small number of seconds, asked how accurately the speed is maintained on a typical cutting lathe.

I had to say I had no idea.

So does anyone here know any of:
1. how accurate (and stable) is the speed of a typical cutting lathe
2. is this orders of magnitude better that the replay speed accuracy of an LP12/Lingo 4 (and how do they do that?)
3. do lathes vary (wildely? or just a bit?) in their accuracy?
4. does this mean that LPs cut more accurately sound better with the L4,
5. and will different LPs show different levels of improvement going from (my) Lingo 1 to Lingo 4, depending on what they were cut on?
6..At the L4 demo, all the LPs we heard were better with L4 (cf L3) - were we just lucky? or might it be that LPs we like a lot happen , amongst other things, to be cut with very accurate lathes (and we (I at least) did not hitherto recognise this as a factor)?

Asking just for interest. I KNOW (because I heard it) that the Lingo 4 is a worthwhile upgrade - I just like to understand these things....

If you dip into http://www.lathetrolls.com you will find all your answers (it’s always an interesting read anyway)
Synopsis for you is all that lathes are direct drive.
Accuracy depends on setup and lathe type.

The L4 will sound better than the L3 on any vinyl.
Another important factor is the quieter drive system (less vibration) with L4.

The deck/drive is the most important factor in the replay train as Ivor always stated.
The groove modulations/stylus interface moves further from the ideal as more noise is present in the system.

Btw I have a number of albums recent and vintage that you can hear lathe/electronic hum throughout the side so not all mastering engineers listen to their product!

Hope this answers some of your questions.
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2018-03-13, 23:20
Post: #3
RE: lingo 4 and LP accuracy
There is certainly variation in accuracy of cutting records, just as there is in pressing and playback. However, that has little to do with whether the Lingo 4 makes an improvement or not. I know automotive analogies are overused but do you think it is unimportant to have round, well balanced tires even though you sometimes travel on rough roads?

Interestingly, my experience has been that turntable improvements (and true system improvements in general) often make bigger musical improvements on records previously found less than totally enjoyable. I believe that the improvement in retrieving the music can push the level of playback up from just below enjoyable to well above that level. After all, errors compound.

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2018-03-14, 01:46
Post: #4
RE: lingo 4 and LP accuracy
I am intrigued to say something.

1. In the LP heyday, the record cutting machine was from the reputable manufacturer at a much higher budget for the mass production of records, cannot be compared with consumer turntables. I am pretty sure the production engineer very concerns about the cutting machine specifications.

2. I am not sure L4 is more accurate than L3 even it has a tachometer like Radikal. The motor is a lower AC voltage 12 V synchronous motor, it sounds better is it vibrate less compared with 100 V AC motor, the accuracy is same governed by 50Hz or 67.5 Hz, it does not correct speed in milliseconds, I suppose the accuracy is same as L3. The strength is L4 you do not need to adjust the motor tilting angle anymore, the tachometer adjusts it for you by reading the discrepancy.
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2018-03-14, 14:33 (This post was last modified: 2018-03-14 14:40 by smokestack.)
Post: #5
RE: lingo 4 and LP accuracy
(2018-03-13 23:20)ThomasOK Wrote:  There is certainly variation in accuracy of cutting records, just as there is in pressing and playback. However, that has little to do with whether the Lingo 4 makes an improvement or not. I know automotive analogies are overused but do you think it is unimportant to have round, well balanced tires even though you sometimes travel on rough roads?

Interestingly, my experience has been that turntable improvements (and true system improvements in general) often make bigger musical improvements on records previously found less than totally enjoyable. I believe that the improvement in retrieving the music can push the level of playback up from just below enjoyable to well above that level. After all, errors compound.

Totally agree with Thomas's comments.

It's often the increased enjoyment of relatively poor recordings [or pressings ] that really highlights a genuine improvement in turntable performance.
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2018-03-19, 12:19
Post: #6
RE: lingo 4 and LP accuracy
I am also curious on how the Lingo 4 actually adjusts the speed of the platter. As I understand, in the Radikal system any platter speed adjustments are done over a number of rotations.... I have not seen any details of how any speed adjustments are carried out with the Lingo 4... are the speed adjustments carried our gradually or more immediate - for example within one rotation?

I believe that the Radikal slow speed adjustment is done this way to prevent unnecessary 'hunting' effect and hence heard as a change in pitch. I would hope that the Lingo 4 uses a similar approach....
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2018-03-19, 14:03
Post: #7
RE: lingo 4 and LP accuracy
(2018-03-19 12:19)Fernar Wrote:  I am also curious on how the Lingo 4 actually adjusts the speed of the platter. As I understand, in the Radikal system any platter speed adjustments are done over a number of rotations.... I have not seen any details of how any speed adjustments are carried out with the Lingo 4... are the speed adjustments carried our gradually or more immediate - for example within one rotation?

I believe that the Radikal slow speed adjustment is done this way to prevent unnecessary 'hunting' effect and hence heard as a change in pitch. I would hope that the Lingo 4 uses a similar approach....

That is interesting, what is the point to correct the speed a few seconds ago? Every turn takes 1.8 seconds, a few turns are 5-6 seconds or more.
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2018-03-20, 04:05
Post: #8
RE: lingo 4 and LP accuracy
(2018-03-19 14:03)Edmund Wrote:  
(2018-03-19 12:19)Fernar Wrote:  I am also curious on how the Lingo 4 actually adjusts the speed of the platter. As I understand, in the Radikal system any platter speed adjustments are done over a number of rotations.... I have not seen any details of how any speed adjustments are carried out with the Lingo 4... are the speed adjustments carried our gradually or more immediate - for example within one rotation?

I believe that the Radikal slow speed adjustment is done this way to prevent unnecessary 'hunting' effect and hence heard as a change in pitch. I would hope that the Lingo 4 uses a similar approach....

That is interesting, what is the point to correct the speed a few seconds ago? Every turn takes 1.8 seconds, a few turns are 5-6 seconds or more.

Thinking about it...

The only information it has is the rotation speed averaged over the last 1.8 seconds,
(updated only once per revolution) and the voltage applied to the motor. The only
control it has is the motor drive voltage.

and it gets complicated - if L4 knows that it changed the drive voltage over the last
revolution, and the average speed over that revolution, it cannot assume the average
speed over the whole revolution to be the same as the speed right now....

If the speed needs adjusting, it can calculate by how much the voltage must change, (It
must know the relationship between motor voltage and speed) and choose to make that
change either immediately, or over a period of some seconds. It appears that radikal does
the latter, and there is no reason to suppose L4 does not do it the same way.

And recalculate after each revolution. This is the earliest we can check that any voltage
change made resulted in the expected speed change.

All this is just for long-term speed accuracy - over short-term (sub-revolution) periods, we
must (still) rely on the inherent stability of the underlying engineering.
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2018-03-20, 06:54
Post: #9
RE: lingo 4 and LP accuracy
"f the speed needs adjusting, it can calculate by how much the voltage must change".
I assume that the speed is determined by the frequency and not the voltage.

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2018-03-20, 08:03 (This post was last modified: 2018-03-20 08:11 by paul_g_barnett.)
Post: #10
RE: lingo 4 and LP accuracy
(2018-03-20 06:54)dol Wrote:  "f the speed needs adjusting, it can calculate by how much the voltage must change".
I assume that the speed is determined by the frequency and not the voltage.

Good point - I forgot that it is an a/c motor (unlike the radikal d/c motor)
so for 'motor voltage', read 'combination of motor voltage and frequency'
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