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Why different default Gain settings for Uphorik and Urika II?
2018-07-02, 12:17
Post: #1
Why different default Gain settings for Uphorik and Urika II?
Anyone know why the default/recommended Gain settings for Uphorik and Urika II are different?

Kandid and Krystal are both +50db for Urika II, but +64 db for the Uphorik (other default settings are the same).

Rolleyes

LP12 (Klimax Radikal/Urika II, Keel, Ekos SE, Lyra Kleos; TP Vulkan, Khan, TranQ, Skale); Klimax Exakt DSM, Kat Exakt Akubariks.
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2018-07-02, 13:52
Post: #2
RE: Why different default Gain settings for Uphorik and Urika II?
There must be more gain somewhere along the way before you get to the amp.

Im sure the Urika II is offered with the expectation that it will be matched with an LOMC, most likely the Kandid. 14 dB of gain can’t go MIA without being noticed.

I’m not knowledgeable about these Linn components, but I seem to remember reading in some post that Urika II matches up with another box, which may provide the additional gain needed.

It’s about the music, not the gear. Just listen - or not.
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2018-07-02, 18:40
Post: #3
RE: Why different default Gain settings for Uphorik and Urika II?
(2018-07-02 13:52)Peer Gynt Wrote:  There must be more gain somewhere along the way before you get to the amp.

Im sure the Urika II is offered with the expectation that it will be matched with an LOMC, most likely the Kandid. 14 dB of gain can’t go MIA without being noticed.

I’m not knowledgeable about these Linn components, but I seem to remember reading in some post that Urika II matches up with another box, which may provide the additional gain needed.

Hi PG I was hoping you might chime in as I've been impressed by your knowledge about cartridge loading matters on the Uphorik thread Smile

The Gain options offered for the Kandid by the Urika II software are 44db, 50db, 56db, and 64db. My question is why the default setting is 50db, when the recommended Gain for the Uphorik is 64db.

http://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/images/f/fb/...ridges.pdf

Do these settings matter?

LP12 (Klimax Radikal/Urika II, Keel, Ekos SE, Lyra Kleos; TP Vulkan, Khan, TranQ, Skale); Klimax Exakt DSM, Kat Exakt Akubariks.
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2018-07-03, 00:36
Post: #4
RE: Why different default Gain settings for Uphorik and Urika II?
I hope that one of the dealers will comment with an official response.

I am speculating, so if some one who knows reels me in, it’s ok with me.

I looked at the Urika II product announcement and specs. It appears to be quite innovative, taking the signal to the digital domain even before RIAA equalization. The signal appears to stay in the digital domain until it gets close to the conversion back to an airborne acoustic signal.

My speculation is that the Urika II provides 50dB of gain as the default for the Kandid, and that the additional gain is provided somewhere later in this unconventional, innovative signal path.

Up until the Urika II, the expectation was that the Kandid would need 64 dB of gain to match well with a conventional analog preamp.

The Urika II is groundbreaking as an interface between vinyl and digital, and the downstream gear is anything but conventional.

So ... maybe one of the dealers will step up and give us the real answer.

FWIW, the gain setting isn’t a critical issue ... more than one choice can work, depending on the noise floor and gain present in other components in the chain. Speaker efficiency is another factor. Your tolerance for noise is a factor too.

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2018-07-03, 07:06 (This post was last modified: 2018-07-03 07:17 by Catweazle.)
Post: #5
RE: Why different default Gain settings for Uphorik and Urika II?
I can only speculate on this, as well. But we know two things for sure:
1. Any analog amplification adds noise to the signal
2. Digitizing an analog signal which is too weak, means to lose dynamic

As a consequence, one would like to beef up the MC output to a level, where the ADC can work in a reasonable dynamic range. I'd guess, this is the reason for the analog amp stage in front of the ADC. Once you are digital, further amplification can be done at any stage, i.e. later in the DS, not neccessarily in the phono stage. This is in contrast to analog, where you like to amp as early as possible, cause later amplification would also amplify the noise that has been picked up on the way through cables and connectors. You rather like to have a strong signal at the front and an attenuator at the end, than a weak signal at the front and an amplifier at the end.

Maybe that is in line with Peer Gynt's thinking?

Can anyone of the happy Urika II owners comment, whether they need to turn up the volume in comparison to analog stages?

BTW: When I upgraded from Linto to Uphorik my impression was, that the Uphorik is much louder than the Linto (~10) at default setting.

Happy listening, CW
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2018-07-03, 09:21
Post: #6
RE: Why different default Gain settings for Uphorik and Urika II?
Thanks PG and Cat for your responses.

I think it would be helpful if Linn could clarify how they have decided Konfig settings (Gain, Resistance, Capacitance) for Urika II supported cartridges, and if any dealers could report on their experience (i.e. whether they have tweaked the defaults).

Konfig has an 'Other Cartridge' option for carts not already listed. The problem here is how to 'translate' the cartridge manufacturer's specs into Konfig settings in terms of Gain, Resistance, and Capacitance.

What I would really like to know are the appropriate settings for the Kleos SL (which I hope to have later this month), for which Lyra provide the following spec:

"
* Coils: Single layer, 6N high-purity copper, 2.7ohms self-impedance
* Output voltage: 0.25mV@5cm/sec., zero to peak, 45 degrees (CBS test record, other test records may alter results)
* Recommended load directly into MC phono input: Determine by listening or follow detailed guidelines in the user manual
* Recommended load via step-up transformer: Use a step-up transformer designed for 2 – 3 ohms cartridge impedance. The transformer output must be connected to standard 47kohm MM-level RIAA input, preferably via short, low-capacitance cable.
"

Any suggestions much appreciated Smile

LP12 (Klimax Radikal/Urika II, Keel, Ekos SE, Lyra Kleos; TP Vulkan, Khan, TranQ, Skale); Klimax Exakt DSM, Kat Exakt Akubariks.
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2018-07-03, 14:22
Post: #7
RE: Why different default Gain settings for Uphorik and Urika II?
I think Cat’s speculation and mine are in agreement, and that his is founded in both logic and understanding of the digital world, whereas mine rests on logic alone.

I think that this issue of loading is very interesting. I have noted that some of my analog tube phono preamps present a beautiful sound for a far wider range of cartridge loads than any of my solid state. The tube based units are from Audio Research (collection begun at the provoking of Glyn Ruck’s lack of enthusiasm for highly adjustable phono preamps) and from Conrad Johnson. The solid state have been the Uphorik (now sold), Krell, NAD, and Rega. Load matching appears to be black art and ultimately dependent on the preamp where the cartridge output will be equalized and magnified. With the Lyra cartridges, at least in the US, they include detailed instructions on loading. The resistive load is highly dependent on the capacitive reactance in the system.

So ... if I were trying to get a starting point for setting up a Kleos SL, I’d probably choose gain at least as high as for the Urika II and the Kandid. I’d probably go to a lower capacitance compared to the Kandid default, and maybe about double the Kandid’s resistance default. Final tuning by listening.

As an aside, when Glyn first shared the idea that Audio Research phono section loads could be changed with a remote control, I was dumbfounded that AR would put out such an obviously inferior product. But then, as seems to be my uncontrollable custom, I bought one to see what it would be like. I was dumbfounded again. Every loading was good enough to listen to. The differences were far more subtle than with the Krell or the Uphorik.

Getting back on track, I am not uncomfortable predicting that the Urika II will require that early adopters go through an experimental learning process. Dealers like Cymbiosis will eventually match the Kleos SL to the Urika II, and if their generosity hasn’t been beaten out of them, they will share with both HQ and customers. Give Peter a call. I’ll bet he’s already worked this problem.

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2018-07-03, 14:53
Post: #8
RE: Why different default Gain settings for Uphorik and Urika II?
PG, I'm just about to upgrade to LP12 Klimax (I think my 1978 model has earned its retirement), but I'm not too sure about the Urika, primarily because to adjust its settings, as far as I can see, you need to dismantle the turntable. For that reason I'm considering the Cyrus Phono Signature/PSX-R2. Being able to change phono section loads with a remote control seems a fine idea to me.
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2018-07-03, 16:11
Post: #9
RE: Why different default Gain settings for Uphorik and Urika II?
(2018-07-03 14:22)Peer Gynt Wrote:  So ... if I were trying to get a starting point for setting up a Kleos SL, I’d probably choose gain at least as high as for the Urika II and the Kandid. I’d probably go to a lower capacitance compared to the Kandid default, and maybe about double the Kandid’s resistance default. Final tuning by listening.

Thanks PG for this - I will bear in mind. I'm wondering how much science has gone into calculating the default Gain settings of supported cartridges: Linn Kandid and Krystal, and Lyra Delos and Argo, are all exactly the same at 50db!

(2018-07-03 14:22)Peer Gynt Wrote:  Getting back on track, I am not uncomfortable predicting that the Urika II will require that early adopters go through an experimental learning process.

Point taken, but I would still like to know how Linn have arrived at their default settings. For example, why is the Capacitance for the Lyra Delos 2.0 NF, when the value for almost every other cart is 1.0 NF, with just a few at 1.5 NF? And even if correct for the Delos, how can this be right for the Kleos?

(2018-07-03 14:22)Peer Gynt Wrote:  Dealers like Cymbiosis will eventually match the Kleos SL to the Urika II, and if their generosity hasn’t been beaten out of them, they will share with both HQ and customers. Give Peter a call. I’ll bet he’s already worked this problem.

I know that Peter has been very busy and has had little time (at least when we last corresponded) for this sort of tinkering. But yes, I expect Cymbiosis to be at the very forefront of the collective learning process Smile

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2018-07-03, 16:24
Post: #10
RE: Why different default Gain settings for Uphorik and Urika II?
Personally, I think the Delos might do better with a higher R and a lower C, at least in my system.

If you’re “all in with Linn,” their recommendations are a better starting point.

Peter is the man.

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