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Paulssurround’s Simplified and Revised SPACE Optimisation Method, July 2018
2018-07-24, 18:12 (This post was last modified: 2018-07-24 18:18 by Sound Hound.)
Post: #81
RE: Paulssurround’s Simplified and Revised SPACE Optimisation Method, July 2018
[quote='Paulssurround' pid='484192' dateline='1531025646']

I must emphasize, that you should only make adjustments to SPACE Optimization using the reference music tracks streamed from your NAS or computer, never streamed from Tidal or Qobuz, as the sound quality from these sources may not be consistent or give you the final result you want.

I note with interest Paul that you don't mention Spotify amongst your "no no's". Could it be that it's considered heresy to even mention the word and I should be stoned to death as a BLASPHEMER !! to even mention Spotify (Yes - I said it again!).

Just asking ; - )

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2018-07-24, 18:24
Post: #82
RE: Paulssurround’s Simplified and Revised SPACE Optimisation Method, July 2018
(2018-07-24 18:12)Sound Hound Wrote:  [quote='Paulssurround' pid='484192' dateline='1531025646']

I must emphasize, that you should only make adjustments to SPACE Optimization using the reference music tracks streamed from your NAS or computer, never streamed from Tidal or Qobuz, as the sound quality from these sources may not be consistent or give you the final result you want.

I note with interest Paul that you don't mention Spotify amongst your "no no's". Could it be that it's considered heresy to even mention the word and I should be stoned to death as a BLASPHEMER !! to even mention Spotify (Yes - I said it again!).

Just asking ; - )

I have never used Spotify

But I think I can confidently rule out using it, or any streaming service for doing Space optimization adjustments.

In a pinch, I did stream one or two tunes of my reference music for adjustments at one person’s home, but did not have as much confidence in the result as with music from a NAS or computer.

Just my opinion though.

Exakt Surround 5.0:
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Power: Environmental Potentials 2460, Shunyata Denali, Zitron Cobras, Alpha Digitals
Room Acoustics: SPACE, SubDude HT's, Acoustic Panels
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2018-07-24, 18:53 (This post was last modified: 2018-07-24 19:36 by Glyn Ruck.)
Post: #83
RE: Paulssurround’s Simplified and Revised SPACE Optimisation Method, July 2018
(2018-07-24 15:54)golke53 Wrote:  
(2018-07-21 15:44)Glyn Ruck Wrote:  That's with an iPhone app & non linear, uncalibrated phone mic & peculiar aberrations. It's simply not good enough to be of any real use. I suspect your "After" might be a lot better than that Paul.

That "After" was before? As it happened during #100 of Paul's tour I could be a witness. Charly is a lifetime friend of mine and so he got invited to be with us during the days in Vienna. He has his own Linn system but since he was not in the tour list he wanted to listen and learn from experience on my system. Charly took records before we started and then after we were done. In between the only devices we used were our ears and we concluded our sessions purely on what we heard. I am still so much in love with Paul's "after", I cannot stop listening to Buffalo Soldier and Walk on the Wild Side. Why I am writing this in context of this last discussion? Because although we were in full awareness that the iPhone mic and app were insufficient tools the results before/after somehow corresponded with what we had heard. We don't pay a lot of attention to the graphs but as an indicator it adds peace of mind.

No doubt, the After is much better than the graphs show. Glyn if you love the Musikverein venue that much then hook up on an opportunity to come over and be with us in my home. Happy to host you and as a side aspect demo my little system before/after. We even serve oatmeal for breakfast.

Thank you for the kindness. Pity we did not meet before I retired from my global job. I will certainly hook up if I come over. The new organ is spectacular!

Paul is obviously getting things right. You don't have over 100 happy customers for nothing. It's one of the reasons I would love to see an accurate measurement.

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2018-08-04, 05:50 (This post was last modified: 2018-08-04 05:54 by Richard Hart.)
Post: #84
RE: Paulssurround’s Simplified and Revised SPACE Optimisation Method, July 2018
Great thread thanks.

Anyone want to offer suggestions on my SO puzzle?

Diagram below shows windows/ glazing in blue and heavy black lines are timber/ plaster GIB walls. Ceiling to floor height is 2.4m throughout. Black boxes speakers. There is a bookshelf over cupboards (right). SO seems to work better when I put room in as 9.3 x 3.7m, and I've added door (front) and window (behind but not sure dimension to use). Bookshelf to right side also tricky.

   

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2018-08-06, 21:00
Post: #85
RE: Paulssurround’s Simplified and Revised SPACE Optimisation Method, July 2018
(2018-08-04 05:50)Richard Hart Wrote:  Great thread thanks.

Anyone want to offer suggestions on my SO puzzle?

Diagram below shows windows/ glazing in blue and heavy black lines are timber/ plaster GIB walls. Ceiling to floor height is 2.4m throughout. Black boxes speakers. There is a bookshelf over cupboards (right). SO seems to work better when I put room in as 9.3 x 3.7m, and I've added door (front) and window (behind but not sure dimension to use). Bookshelf to right side also tricky.

That is a tricky room for sure.

The biggest issue for me is the bookshelves/cupboards on the right wall and bookshelves on the back wall, as those offsets make it difficult to know what room dimensions to input. The sound is almost certainly going to bounce around inside those spaces

Officially, you would probably use the 9.3 X 3.7m dimension.

However, in practical terms for Space optimization, I would consider creating a new Space profile under a new folder name, using the 3.7m by 4.4m dimensions.

Just for fun, try stuffing the book shelves with some pillows to absorb some sound and see what that does to sound quality?

Good luck

Exakt Surround 5.0:
Katalyst Akubariks, AEDSM, AkuKat Exaktbox 6/4200 for 225 Centre, Majik Exaktbox I for 212 Surrounds, OPPO 203 on StillPoints, Cat8
Power: Environmental Potentials 2460, Shunyata Denali, Zitron Cobras, Alpha Digitals
Room Acoustics: SPACE, SubDude HT's, Acoustic Panels
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2018-08-06, 22:00
Post: #86
RE: Paulssurround’s Simplified and Revised SPACE Optimisation Method, July 2018
(2018-08-06 21:00)Paulssurround Wrote:  
(2018-08-04 05:50)Richard Hart Wrote:  Great thread thanks.

Anyone want to offer suggestions on my SO puzzle?

Diagram below shows windows/ glazing in blue and heavy black lines are timber/ plaster GIB walls. Ceiling to floor height is 2.4m throughout. Black boxes speakers. There is a bookshelf over cupboards (right). SO seems to work better when I put room in as 9.3 x 3.7m, and I've added door (front) and window (behind but not sure dimension to use). Bookshelf to right side also tricky.

That is a tricky room for sure.

The biggest issue for me is the bookshelves/cupboards on the right wall and bookshelves on the back wall, as those offsets make it difficult to know what room dimensions to input. The sound is almost certainly going to bounce around inside those spaces

Officially, you would probably use the 9.3 X 3.7m dimension.

However, in practical terms for Space optimization, I would consider creating a new Space profile under a new folder name, using the 3.7m by 4.4m dimensions.

Just for fun, try stuffing the book shelves with some pillows to absorb some sound and see what that does to sound quality?

Good luck

The bookshelf is almost certainly a good thing as it is, no need to stuff with pillows or anything. The more unevenly arranged the books the better!
As for the rest of it, it's probably as far removed from the 'model' as it's possible to get, so, err good luck with that! Big Grin
I'd suggest trying rooms of all possible combinations of dimensions and see which frequencies do some good then combine them. As for bandwidths and depths though...
Do you sit in the circle or on the settee? I suspect that will make a huge difference.

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2018-08-07, 03:45
Post: #87
RE: Paulssurround’s Simplified and Revised SPACE Optimisation Method, July 2018
Thanks for the replies.

For a long time I had dimensions down as 3.7 x 4.4m or similar. The left speaker has opened up with SO at 9m though in a good way. Sometimes I think left speaker now sounds louder, but probably my imagination, and turning head will also change this. Definitely better with blinds down behind in the corner window, and helps stop sound bouncing around off the glass. The return wall left of seat must cause weird reflections.

Fascinating subject and room dynamics are clearly a huge factor. Best listening is with chair pulled forward to circle (near field) with spectacular results, but impractical most times, and a solo experience. The concert hall pictures bove indicate that at home we can only achieve so much.

The Linn custom filters have been something of a relevation with quite different presentation. Not sure I trust my own hearing sometimes, and music choice/mood/ volume varies the outcome. At least I'm loving the music! Perhaps I'll experiment with changing room depth in 0.5 or 1m increments. Wonder if I fiddle with ideal listening/speaker position as an alternative maybe bringing right speaker forward under ideal dimension. I wonder how Linn came up with their fields, and if an advanced version is ever possible. Seems something whole hifi industry should get together on. Paul how do you decide which parameter to adjust with these situations? You must have some hunches you utilise.

PC (as NAS, Linn Server, Kazoo) - MS Surface control - KDS3(Kat) - MF8500s - Focal 1028be
2nd bedroom as before + range extender - ADSM/1 - headphones, considering kat in due course
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2018-08-07, 05:37
Post: #88
RE: Paulssurround’s Simplified and Revised SPACE Optimisation Method, July 2018
(2018-08-06 22:00)phino Wrote:  
(2018-08-06 21:00)Paulssurround Wrote:  
(2018-08-04 05:50)Richard Hart Wrote:  Great thread thanks.

Anyone want to offer suggestions on my SO puzzle?

Diagram below shows windows/ glazing in blue and heavy black lines are timber/ plaster GIB walls. Ceiling to floor height is 2.4m throughout. Black boxes speakers. There is a bookshelf over cupboards (right). SO seems to work better when I put room in as 9.3 x 3.7m, and I've added door (front) and window (behind but not sure dimension to use). Bookshelf to right side also tricky.

That is a tricky room for sure.

The biggest issue for me is the bookshelves/cupboards on the right wall and bookshelves on the back wall, as those offsets make it difficult to know what room dimensions to input. The sound is almost certainly going to bounce around inside those spaces

Officially, you would probably use the 9.3 X 3.7m dimension.

However, in practical terms for Space optimization, I would consider creating a new Space profile under a new folder name, using the 3.7m by 4.4m dimensions.

Just for fun, try stuffing the book shelves with some pillows to absorb some sound and see what that does to sound quality?

Good luck

The bookshelf is almost certainly a good thing as it is, no need to stuff with pillows or anything. The more unevenly arranged the books the better!
As for the rest of it, it's probably as far removed from the 'model' as it's possible to get, so, err good luck with that! Big Grin
I'd suggest trying rooms of all possible combinations of dimensions and see which frequencies do some good then combine them. As for bandwidths and depths though...
Do you sit in the circle or on the settee? I suspect that will make a huge difference.

Phino, I agree a bookshelf filled with books is a good thing, and can act as a very effective diffuser. Big Grin

I saw an excellent example of that when I visited a Linn Forum member that had 2 walls filled with vinyl, and the room acoustics were incredible.

But there are features of the listening area from the picture presented, that may present a challenge, such as the return wall to the left of the listening position and the corner window. The depth of the bookshelfs and cupboards may allow the sound to get trapped and bounce around complicating the room acoustics, so that is why I suggested throwing a couple of pillows into the space to see what happens.

It probably wouldn’t hurt to try a few pillows in the corner window area.

I would also try a new profile, inputting the room dimensions as if the speakers were perfectly centred on the front wall, equidistant from the left and right walls. This can sometimes work wonders.


(2018-08-07 03:45)Richard Hart Wrote:  Thanks for the replies.

For a long time I had dimensions down as 3.7 x 4.4m or similar. The left speaker has opened up with SO at 9m though in a good way. Sometimes I think left speaker now sounds louder, but probably my imagination, and turning head will also change this. Definitely better with blinds down behind in the corner window, and helps stop sound bouncing around off the glass. The return wall left of seat must cause weird reflections.

Fascinating subject and room dynamics are clearly a huge factor. Best listening is with chair pulled forward to circle (near field) with spectacular results, but impractical most times, and a solo experience. The concert hall pictures bove indicate that at home we can only achieve so much.

The Linn custom filters have been something of a relevation with quite different presentation. Not sure I trust my own hearing sometimes, and music choice/mood/ volume varies the outcome. At least I'm loving the music! Perhaps I'll experiment with changing room depth in 0.5 or 1m increments. Wonder if I fiddle with ideal listening/speaker position as an alternative maybe bringing right speaker forward under ideal dimension. I wonder how Linn came up with their fields, and if an advanced version is ever possible. Seems something whole hifi industry should get together on. Paul how do you decide which parameter to adjust with these situations? You must have some hunches you utilise.

Hi Richard, a few points came to mind.

If one speaker is input into Konfig as closer to the wall than the other speaker, then Space optimization might reduce bass gain on the speaker closer to the wall. That may be why the left speaker sound louder?

As far as I know, Linn is working on a much more advanced version of Space optimization. If it is released this year, I would expect towards the end of September or early October, after the Linn conference?

What I do know is that Linn have made phenomenal improvements in sound quality, as Space optimization evolves. The current versions are a far cry better than a year ago, which are leaps ahead of the previous year, so I project crazy good things ahead from Linn.

I have read the Linn documents on how to do Space optimization, and have in many cases tried to apply what I know to various room setups. I can only guess what Linn thinks of my approach, but it can present itself with great results.

In many cases I forge ahead, trying to solve a specific hurdle that I encounter in different room setups. I sometimes feel like a detective trying to solve a mystery, and in those cases there is no rule book on moving forward. So I have to try to invent a new approach, some of which is intuitive, some of it is just trying bold new ideas, where no man has gone before. The results are this thread. Tongue

I try to get the HiFi basics done, which includes speaker placement, vibration control, cable spaghetti management, power connection issues and other setup parameters. Then I tackle the Space optimization thing.

Exakt Surround 5.0:
Katalyst Akubariks, AEDSM, AkuKat Exaktbox 6/4200 for 225 Centre, Majik Exaktbox I for 212 Surrounds, OPPO 203 on StillPoints, Cat8
Power: Environmental Potentials 2460, Shunyata Denali, Zitron Cobras, Alpha Digitals
Room Acoustics: SPACE, SubDude HT's, Acoustic Panels
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