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More bass in the place?
2018-07-11, 13:43 (This post was last modified: 2018-07-11 13:44 by Raymond.)
Post: #1
More bass in the place?
In my living room, I have a pair of active Katalyst Akubariks. There is a carpet in front of the speakers and the entire room has large glass windows (and virtually no concentrate walls). Also, the speakers stand in front of a glass window front.

I like my set-up – it’s very precise (especially for classical music) and the soundstage is great. However, I sometimes feel there is some bass missing. In my bedroom, I run a 520 system but due to the specifics of the room there is just “more” (don’t have a better way to describe it) bass.

My dealer recommends upgrading to 350 speakers but this is not an option. I’m rather thinking of tweaking the SPACE optimization – I’m currently pretty much running the calculated settings. What would be suggested tweaks to get a “fuller” bass?
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2018-07-11, 14:23
Post: #2
RE: More bass in the place?
Have you tried adding a small amount to the bass shelf in SO?

‘troll
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2018-07-11, 16:22
Post: #3
RE: More bass in the place?
Read Paulssurround's advice on SO - quite a few rooms need tweaks to the SO calculated settings - typically to make the notches slightly shallower and narrower.

Main: N1ZH, AK/0/D; AEDSM; MeiCord AEBox/1; Silvers 2x A4200/1; K400 NSL Exakt dual-mono PMC Twenty.26; Twenty.C; Blacks AV5125 PMC Twenty.21
Playroom: SBT; V-DAC1; Cyrus6; M773e
Garage: SBT/Rega DAC; Arcam AVR100; 2x AV5125; Aktiv Ninkas, Trikan, SeKretan
www.audiophilemusings.co.uk
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2018-07-11, 16:52
Post: #4
RE: More bass in the place?
(2018-07-11 13:43)Raymond Wrote:  In my living room, I have a pair of active Katalyst Akubariks. There is a carpet in front of the speakers and the entire room has large glass windows (and virtually no concentrate walls). Also, the speakers stand in front of a glass window front.

I like my set-up – it’s very precise (especially for classical music) and the soundstage is great. However, I sometimes feel there is some bass missing. In my bedroom, I run a 520 system but due to the specifics of the room there is just “more” (don’t have a better way to describe it) bass.

My dealer recommends upgrading to 350 speakers but this is not an option. I’m rather thinking of tweaking the SPACE optimization – I’m currently pretty much running the calculated settings. What would be suggested tweaks to get a “fuller” bass?
In my experience, which is less than a dealer's, the calculated settings are estimated on the basis of an empty room and therefore overestimate the amount of SO required. My passive Akubariks produce plenty of deep musical bass with some cut in the calculated attenuation. I have never heard the use of a shelf improve the music. As always, my findings only though.

'The grocer told me what you do with bread'
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2018-07-11, 17:22
Post: #5
RE: More bass in the place?
Applying SO as per Paul's instruction will definitely provide you with more and better controlled, tighter bass. Whilst containing or even opening up the upper registers.
If you don't feel ready to go through that procedure and don't want to wait for Paul's next tournee de SO, a quick approach that may not get you to an optimum but may help to get closer to your preferences is to just reduce the amount of negative gain that SO applies to the mode frequencies. I used to take away 10 db on each, meaning if a calculated gain at 43.6 HZ shows -26.7 db then I modified it to -16.7 db. Save your old settings before hand, press apply and listen. You may want to repeat it for all calculared modes but don't have to. Just keep the ones you like and save all in a new profile. I used to name it "all at calc -10 db" or so. Then enjoy and either wait for Paul to come to your place and do the real stuff or start working into his approach. Your Akubariks are anything but shy on bass, rather the opposite so don't follow your dealer's advice. My 2 cents.

PS: I also used to play with shelf and it made things bassier but as already said, not better.

KK/1/D, KDS/3, 2xKCTs/D into B&W 803 D3, Oppo 105, QNAP 439 Pro II, QNAP TS 453A
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2018-07-11, 19:59
Post: #6
RE: More bass in the place?
(2018-07-11 17:22)golke53 Wrote:  Applying SO as per Paul's instruction will definitely provide you with more and better controlled, tighter bass. Whilst containing or even opening up the upper registers.
If you don't feel ready to go through that procedure and don't want to wait for Paul's next tournee de SO, a quick approach that may not get you to an optimum but may help to get closer to your preferences is to just reduce the amount of negative gain that SO applies to the mode frequencies. I used to take away 10 db on each, meaning if a calculated gain at 43.6 HZ shows -26.7 db then I modified it to -16.7 db. Save your old settings before hand, press apply and listen. You may want to repeat it for all calculared modes but don't have to. Just keep the ones you like and save all in a new profile. I used to name it "all at calc -10 db" or so. Then enjoy and either wait for Paul to come to your place and do the real stuff or start working into his approach. Your Akubariks are anything but shy on bass, rather the opposite so don't follow your dealer's advice. My 2 cents.

PS: I also used to play with shelf and it made things bassier but as already said, not better.

This is a good quick approach, but I would suggest cutting the depth of the notches by 25-30% rather than a fixed value. Also, do them one at a time, starting with the lowest frequency, and go back to the calculated value if you think any of them make the music less enjoyable.

Main: N1ZH, AK/0/D; AEDSM; MeiCord AEBox/1; Silvers 2x A4200/1; K400 NSL Exakt dual-mono PMC Twenty.26; Twenty.C; Blacks AV5125 PMC Twenty.21
Playroom: SBT; V-DAC1; Cyrus6; M773e
Garage: SBT/Rega DAC; Arcam AVR100; 2x AV5125; Aktiv Ninkas, Trikan, SeKretan
www.audiophilemusings.co.uk
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2018-07-11, 21:11 (This post was last modified: 2018-07-11 21:12 by DavidHB.)
Post: #7
RE: More bass in the place?
(2018-07-11 19:59)sunbeamgls Wrote:  ... This is a good quick approach, but I would suggest cutting the depth of the notches by 25-30% rather than a fixed value. Also, do them one at a time, starting with the lowest frequency, and go back to the calculated value if you think any of them make the music less enjoyable.

I certainly agree with golke53's and timster's general approach (which has produced satisfactory results for me in the past), but I rather think that the trial adjustments they suggest do not take account of the fact that the dB scale is logarithmic rather than arithmetic (because that's the way our hearing works). So values that look arithmetically sensible may not be the best ones to start with in practice, and, following timster's point, the seemingly fixed value adjustments that you input are actually proportionate rather than absolute.

An adjustment of 6dB up or down doubles or halves the associated sound pressure level (not the same thing as doubling or halving the perceived volume, incidentally), and IIRC it is or was the starting adjustment recommended by Linn. In a typical case (certainly with the Akubariks), you might see a room mode 1 calculated as something like -27dB. Change this to-21dB, and you will have doubled the residual sound energy level at the Mode 1 frequency. If a 6dB adjustment doesn't give you everything you want, try a 3dB adjustment to -18dB. Or you could try reducing the filter bandwidth slightly, though I am a little wary of doing this as there isn't an obvious reference to use, as there is with the dB scale. I found that, for a "lack of bass" problem, it was usually sufficient to adjust only the two lowest modes.

If you are feeling a lack of bass with Akubariks, the SO settings are very likely the cause of the issue. That was demonstrated to me by my dealer, and, having subsequently been fortunate enough to have received a visit from Paulssurround, I now have a system with good, lively, deep and responsive bass. I can easily tell when the double basses are underpinning the orchestral sound and when they are silent, or whether the organist is using an 8' or a 16' stop in a particular passage.

David

Main system: [LP12* > Lejonklou Gaio >][Roksan Kandy Mk III >] KEDSM > Akurate Exaktbox 10/1 > Linn Silvers> A4200 x 2 and A2200 > K600 > Akubariks.
*LP12: 1987 fluted plinth; Cirkus; Lingo 4; Trampolin; Kore; Basik Plus arm; K5 cartridge, Paratrace stylus.

Second system: Kiko.
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2018-07-11, 23:59
Post: #8
RE: More bass in the place?
Hi Raymond,

Here is a link to my newest thread on Space Optimisation


https://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=40069

Hopefully this helps you get much better bass


I have included an example of how I completed SO on my Katalyst Akubariks in post number 55

Exakt Surround 5.0:
Katalyst Akubariks, AEDSM, AkuKat Exaktbox 6/4200 for 225 Centre, Majik Exaktbox I for 212 Surrounds, OPPO 203 on StillPoints, Cat8
Power: Environmental Potentials 2460, Shunyata Denali, Zitron Cobras, Alpha Digitals
Room Acoustics: SPACE, SubDude HT's, Acoustic Panels
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